Success and Failure Blog

The book is entitled simply, “How To Cast Out Demons.” Period. No apologies. No subtitles. It is written by a no-nonsense grandmother, Doris Wagner, the wife of C. Peter Wagner, whose ministry is doing just that – casting out demons and setting people free. And the book is fantastic, straight forward, and to the point.

Seeing that I am presently working on developing a deliverance team for my home church, I had committed myself to read through this book. And since I ride the train to and from work every day for 25 minutes or so each way, I can find no better method to knock off a book in a week or so than to turn my train time into study time. I have found that my book selections often generate curiosity, stares and conversation with various train riders, and I’ve grown accustomed to it to some degree. I will admit, though, that the “in-your-face” title of this particular book led me to feel a bit self-conscious about reading it during my train time, a fact that I’m not proud of. I am by no means shy about my faith, but I couldn’t help but wonder – what would people think when they saw the title?

I discovered just that on this morning as I was waiting for the train and beginning my morning reading. A fellow train rider sat next to me on the bench as I waited for the train, deeply engrossed in what Doris had to say this morning about occult practices and how this led to demonization. I didn’t really notice his stare until he spoke to me.

He said plainly, “You must be a minister.”

I looked up halfway and murmured, “yes,” in a way that indicated I was much more interested in reading than talking. (I know, I know – “be ready in season and out of season.”).

“Hmmm, I figured so,” he said, pulling his own well-worn Bible from a backpack. A believer, I thought. Now my curiosity was aroused.

“How did you know?” I asked.

He pointed to my book. “I figured only a minister would be reading something like that.”

The book. Suddenly I felt self-conscious again, wondering what would come next. I didn’t have to wait long.

“So tell me,” he asked, “What sort of people need deliverance? Drug addicts?”

Straightforward and to the point. Respectful and curious. He now had my full attention. The Teacher rose up in me. He desired information, and he had picked the right tree to get a barrel of apples this morning…

I closed my book and turned to him. “Drug addicts, divorce victims, rape victims, victims of abuse, witches, people with sexual addictions, smokers, violent people, adopted children, emotionally wounded people. the list goes on.”

“So, basically, just about anyone,” he said. “Tell me, can Christians be possessed?”

“Christians can be demonized,” I assured him.

“But how can a person with the spirit of God living inside of them have a demon?” He asked honestly. I saw the sincerity in his eyes, heard the hunger in his voice.

“Excellent question,” I affirmed. I was now in full teaching gear. “You and I are not simple beings; we are tri-fold beings, just like the nature of God. We are body, soul and spirit. Our spirit became born again once we accepted salvation, but the rest of our system, our soul and our body, experience salvation as a process, sanctification and then glorification. As a result, we cannot be possessed by a demonic spirit, but they can still afflict us in our bodies and in our minds, wills, and emotions. We experience demonic oppression as mental strongholds and spiritual bondages. Just like Joshua and the Israelites had to expel the enemy from the promised land that God had given them, we often have to expel demonic forces from our soul and body so that the Lord can have complete control over our systems.”

I was on a role now, talking fast and trying to make my explanations clear, for the train was now coming. A few other train riders were also listening, but trying hard not to look like they were doing so. I now had a class going, and I wanted to get to the end of the brief lesson.

My friend was a fast learner. “So let me get this right, “he said. “We believers can’t be possessed by the devil, but we can be influenced and afflicted in parts of our system.”

I applauded. I couldn’t have said it better myself. I threw in a few more scriptures of support, and then we stepped onto different train cars and parted ways. I wondered several things: Should I have gotten on the car with him and continued the dialogue? Was there more to be shared? Was I effective with what I had shared? Did he have more questions that I could have answered? Even more, did he have a particular need that I could have met?

As I rode on to work, I made myself a couple of promises – I would pay more attention to those who wanted to talk (I could always study later), and I would stay ready to answer. I will always remember the wisdom of 1 Peter 3:15 – “But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience.”

Lord, strengthen me to do just that, with gentleness and respect.

IT IS SO UNIQUE how some spiritual adventures begin, especially the ones you grow from. How was I to know that one dialogue while waiting for a train ride home would result in a Christian vs. Jehovah’s Witness battle that would last for several months? I have never been one to shy away from a Bible discussion or debate, even though my maturing conscience in Christ has often rebuked me for the level of “excitement” I have brought to the task. I envision myself being smooth and calm, reciting scriptures as if they were written on the back of my hand. Instead the dialogue (at least in my case) many times de-evolved into a classic courtroom case between two lawyers, many times with the other side walking away in frustration (I have missed several trains because I refuse to walk away from the JWs).

This guy, however, was my equal in tenacity and stubbornness, if not in Bible knowledge (not that I know so much). Since we rode on the train together towards home and often towards work as well, this treated our fellow train riders to a full 25 minutes of non-stop Bible debate between two “never-say-die” believers of differing ideologies, squaring off with their respective Bibles. The train would often grow quiet as we battled, with some Christians standing nearby and quietly rooting me on, or some nearby JWs listening intently and showing no emotion.

My friend Dennis was no pushover. The moment he found out I was a Christian pastor, he launched into his questions designed to point out the “flaws” in the Christian church’s theology (none of which were new to me.) When I told him I had dealt with many of his group’s Elders and Bible students, he said challengingly, “Well, you’ve got one now.”

I must admit, to my shame, that I relished pridefully in the challenge. The discussions gave me an opportunity to break out my Exhibit A passages that I was sure would cause most JWs to drop to their knees in tearful repentance. Instead, Dennis would deftly counter with his New World Translation’s version of the same passage that would somehow deliver an interpretation that conflicted with my own, or he would share an alternate understanding of the same passage, which would launch us into another 5-minute debate on the validity of his interpretation. We went from battling Bible passages to battling versions, from versions to commentators, from commentators to original manuscripts. A number of times when I thought I had him cornered, I clearly saw the deception that would come over him, preventing him from conceding any point that contradicted his JW perspective. I tried hard not to deny any accurate point made by him, and he did the same at times, but on the major points of the Christian faith, he would not acknowledge any of his flaws or errors.

On my part, I began to research the entire JW history from the 1800s, researching websites, printing reams of documents aned carrying them around in a 3-hole binder, looking for Dennis to try out my latest scriptural logic and historical findings. He would often do the same, faithfully sharing his JW-endorsed support docs to prove his points. Sometimes we slipped into scriptural insults (yes, there can be such a thing.) This went on for months, Monday through Friday. There was no give; we were deadlocked.

I didn’t get a revelation on what I was doing wrong until a woman on the morning train once spoke to both of us, saying pleadingly, “Gentlemen, please!” I didn’t see anger on her face, but embarrassment. She was holding a Christian book. A believer, I thought. She should be on MY side! But the thought came to me quietly: was I on God’s side in this? Wasn’t I doing it right? I remember the passage in the book of Joshua where Joshua, at war with Israel’s enemies, came upon an angel posed in the field with a sword during a battle. Joshua promptly asked, “Are you with our enemies or with us?” The angel answered just as promptly, “Neither one; but I have come for the Lord God of Hosts.” Joshua immediately changed his attitude and asked “what does the Lord God have to say?”

That passage blew me away. The angel was saying, “I am not here to choose sides in your dispute; I am here to fight for whichever side has sided with God. The real question is, which side are YOU on in HIS battle?” That passage tells me that we can be all fired up for a cause and still miss the will of God in our battle. That is what I had done with Dennis; instead of trying to win him over to the kingdom with God’s love and grace, I was trying to beat him into the kingdom with my logic, knowledge, and persuasiveness. I was hardening his heart towards me, guaranteeing that he wouldn’t receive whatever response I gave. I was simply trying to WIN. As a result, my humility was out of the window and my pride was in full gear. Once that happened, the Lord was neither on my side NOR Dennis’, for neither one of us was on his side at that point. Remember the passage: “God resists the proud, but exalts the humble…”

In my zeal to win the lost, I had become the proud; even if my doctrine was correct, my heart was not. I immediately tried to change my tactics with Dennis. Whenever he sees me now, he immediately launches into some aspect of doctrine designed to eventually draw me into a debate. I am now trying to respond respectfully, changing the subject here and there to a more personal or amiable subject, like our families, our jobs, our personal histories. In other words, like Jesus did with the woman at the well, I am now trying to first become his friend. Sometimes I have passed the test, other times that pride element will flare up and take over. I realize now that the real battle, the one that really matters for me, is first won within my own heart.

I don’t know how this “friendship” will go, how long it will last, or what will be the end results. I have learned a lot about Jehovah’s Witnesses, their ways, thinking and deception (For truly they are deceived). But I have also learned much about myself and my own weaknesses in the Lord, and they are many. I understand how far we as believers have to go in maturing our own hearts before we can effectively share the gospel with others. And I now understand more fully the truth in the statement, “People don’t care what you know until they know that you care.”

Lord God, forgive me for misrepresenting you. I repent of my pridefulness and dependence on myself and my knowledge. Help me to learn how to draw people to you with love and compassion instead of with knowledge and judgement. Help me to die to my own flesh and will so that I can more fully walk in your spirit and love. Amen.

(PS — If you really wish to know and understand the challenge of the Jehovah’s Witness group, read “Crisis of Conscience” by former Jehovah’s Witness Elder Raymond Franz. A very insightful, precise, compassionate book.)

Matthew 18:19-20 — “Again, assuredly I tell you, that if two of you will agree on earth concerning anything that they will ask, it will be done for them by my Father who is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there I am in the midst of them.”

My Lord, my God… no one can ever tell me that prayer does not work! Not after what I’ve seen, No, Lord, no. You see, I was working with this faithful group of growing prayer warriors at my church, praying, fellowshipping, interceding and seeking. So much of prayer is an exercise of faith as you pray for your family, your church, your neighborhood, your city and state, the country and for Israel. you don’t see immediate results that you attribute to your voice being heard in the heavenly realm. But every once in a while (for some even faster) an answer comes along that quickens your faith, strengthens your resolve and drives your spirit to pray even harder.

Such was the result of two prayers this past month. We were gathered in the small prayer room just before service, just finishing up morning prayer, when one of the prayer warriors, Shameccah, brought her daughter into the room. It seems she was very burdened over her uncle, who was caught up in drugs and was not attending any church. Indeed, she was in tears.

We were fresh from praying for the coming service for today, and our spirits were warmed and ready. “What is your uncle’s name?” I asked.

“Sam,” she said tearfully.

We gathered ourselves together in a circle and with a few words of focus and instructions, we offered up a “Prayer Bomb” for Sam: everyone praying out loud, bombarding Heaven, calling on the same of Jesus, claiming Sam’s soul for the kingdom, rebuking the spirit of sorcery, binding the hands of the enemy, releasing the angelic hosts of God to do intense warfare for Sam. Five minutes later, we wound down and the prayer ended. The atmosphere of the room was very charged. I turned to the young girl, who was also in the circle. “Now you continue to pray for him this week and expect the best,” I said. Then we left the room to prepare for the service.

The very next Sunday I was standing at the altar, preparing to pray for those who came forth for various reasons. A tall, somber-looking man walked up to receive the call to rededicate his life to the Lord Jesus. By the look of his face and eyes, I could tell that he was living a rough life. As I prepared to pray for him, both the young girl from last week and her mother stood behind this man and caught my attention. Their eyes were glossy with tears and they had smiles on their faces. They pointed to the man and mouthed something to me. “This is Sam,” they whispered. I was absolutely stunned.

It turns out that Sam suddenly decided that he needed to go to church to get right with the Lord. Something was drawing him so strongly and he was so determined to get there that he was in the process of walking to church that morning when someone gave him a ride the rest of the way. When we received the full report, the next night of intercession we were truly ON FIRE.

“Who shall we prayer for next?” we asked eagerly, gathered in our end-of-the-meeting prayer circle. Cynthia, one of the prayer leaders, volunteered her son, Booker. “He hasn’t been to church in ages and I’m always worried about him,” she said. “He truly needs the Lord.” We gathered in our prayer circle, bowed our heads and began to fervently bombard Heaven on Booker’s behalf: binding, claiming, declaring, renouncing, rebuking, thanking. It was ten minutes of intense, faith-filled prayer, fueled by last week’s victory for Sam. At the end of ten minutes we finally ended. You could tell by the look on everyone’s face that we had prayed out of ourselves and into the spirit realm.

I don’t know what I expected – I am careful not to put God in the box of my expectations – but I was expecting something, I don’t know what. After two weeks there was no report, no mysterious visitors dragging themselves in and falling on the altar, and no one mentioned the prayer request.

I received a call from Cynthia on Wednesday, April 26. “Pastor, I just wanted you to know that I just finished talking to my son to see how he was doing,” she said, and I could hear the joy bubbling in her voice. My heart began to pound. “He told me that he has visited two different churches in the past few weeks, looking for a place to fellowship. He wants to get right with God!” I could have screamed, not so much because I was invested in this person’s being drawn to the Lord, but even more so because, once again, I knew, I just KNEW, that his sudden seeking of the Lord was due in large part because we had bombarded Heaven on his behalf. Once again the Lord moved in response to an intense, heartfelt prayer of saints in agreement, just as He had promised.

There is nothing so faith-building, nothing so encouraging, as answered prayer, to see our communication with the God of Heaven followed by His visible, measurable response on the earth, to experience the divine connection between our requests and His responses. Truly, truly, as the Bible has said repeatedly, this is the key to all revivals, conversions, outreaches, ministries, warfares, breakthroughs and blessings. PRAYER WORKS!!

“If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray, turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from Heaven, I will forgive their sins and heal their land.” 2 Chron. 7:14